Exceptional Nonfiction Reads & A Conversation w/ Wendy MacKnight: Books Between, Episode 51

Episode Outline:

Listen to the episode here!


Hi everyone and welcome to Books Between – a podcast to help teachers, parents, and librarians connect kids between 8-12 to books they’ll love.  I’m your host, Corrina Allen – a teacher, a mom of a 9 and 11 year old, and struggling with some kind of rogue pollen in the air. So if I suddenly sound like the Albino from the Pit of Despair in The Princess Bride – that is why.

This is Episode #51 and today I’m discussing some exceptional nonfiction reads and sharing a conversation with Wendy MacKnight, author of The Frame-up!  

But first I am excited to tell you that today’s episode is sponsored by MoxieReader – a literacy app that’s like a fitness tracker for your reading life. It gives educators insights unnamedinto their students’ reading lives, customized recommendations, and a way for kids to set and work toward their own reading goals in a way that is engaging and fun. My 5th graders and I have been trying it out over the past couple of weeks and they have been really been pumped up about hitting their own goals AND they’ve really liked sharing recommendations with each other.

I feel like the summer is, for me anyway, the perfect time to explore something new so head over to MoxieReader.com and the use the code welovereading and try it out!

A few announcements to pass along! This month’s Middle Grade at Heart book club pick is The Mad Wolf’s Daughter. We’ll have author Diane Magras on the show soon so watch out for that! In July we are reading, Just Under the Clouds and Where the Watermelons Grow is the August pick.

In other news, we at MGBookVillage had SUCH as fabulous response to the #MGBookChat  Twitter chats that we’ve decided to continue them!

So set a reminder for Mondays at 9pm EST  and check out #MGBookChat on Twitter for great conversations between educators, librarians, and authors about how to get great books into the hands of middle grade readers!    We have some great guest hosts lined up so far, but If you have an idea for a topic centered around supporting children’s reading lives and celebrating MG books and would like to co-host an upcoming chat, please contact us. (I’ll drop a link to more information and our upcoming schedule in the show notes.)

Book Talk – Exceptional Nonfiction Reads

This week’s book talk is all about nonfiction!! And I will admit, I do tend to read and book talk more fiction than nonfiction. (And I have heard from some of you about that.) But, my students and I are just coming off of a great Unit of Study all about informational texts and I wanted to share with you some of the books that have really hooked us. And as I started this list, I soon realized it’s too much for one episode. So consider this part one, and on the next show you’ll get more great recommendations!

Let’s get into it with the hot reads with my fifth graders this year. All of these books had long waiting lists and complicated exchange arrangements with my kids – if you work in a classroom or library, you know what I mean.

First up… the Science Comics series!! Oh my word – have these books taken off in my class!  They are graphic novel-style books that feature a character (like an animal) introducing you to their world and telling you everything you need to know about it.  For example, a favorite one in our class is Science Comics Dogs: From Predator to Protector by Andy Hirsch and it starts with an introduction by two canine scientists and then we meet Rudy, who talks directly to the reader about things like domestication, Punnett Squares, and evolution, and breeds, and the meanings of various howls and wags. We have another one called Coral Reefs: Cities of the Oceans which is told by a little yellow fish and is all about coral formation and water runoff and the effects of climate change. I will say – they are complicated and do contain sophisticated vocabulary like alleles and numerical dating vs relative dating and, well – lots of other words I can’t pronounce! But the support of the illustrations really helps, and I have found that readers will pick up what they can and skim the rest – and that’s okay. They next time they come across the term allele, they’ll be more likely to pick up that meaning.  There are a TON more in the series, Bats, Plague, Flying Machines, Volcanoes, Robots & Drones with new titles coming like Polar Bears and Wild Weather!! I definitely need to get more of these next year – they are bright and colorful – and just COOL!

Another hot nonfiction read for us this year is Don’t Read This Book Before Bed: Thrills, Chills, and Hauntingly True Stories by Anna Claybourne. This is a National Geographic Kids book published by Scholastic and how it’s set up is each topic has a two page spread with a big title, an introduction and then 4 or 5 text features like a timeline or picture, or fact box. It really lends itself to bite-sized reading and with each flip of the page you get a new topic like “Island of the Dolls” or “Buried Alive” or “Eerie Everest”. And there are six quizzes throughout the book like “Are You Afraid of the Dark?” or “Spot the Fake Photos!” so I liked that it also included some debunking and skepticism. This is book that some of your kids are going to look at and say, “No thank you!” but you know there are a lot you are going to go “Oh yeah! Let me at it!”

In a similar vein is a book called Beasties in My Backyard which also includes a two-page spread for common backyard (or household) bugs like centipedes and cicadas and cockroaches and lightning bugs! Each page has an intro and a HUGE super close-up photo (like see every hair on their legs photo) with the features labeled and explained. And then a fact file with its size and diet and location. And a few text features. Actually, even though the title is Beasties in my Backyard – our classroom has had its share of ants, and moths, and stink bugs, and centipedes recently. Just yesterday my teammate, Cindy, had to snag a spider out of my hair during lunch!  A couple other nonfiction books that my biology-loving students are getting into are 101 Hidden Animals (all about creatures who camouflage), Life As We Know It (about everything from the beginnings of life on earth to species and ecosystems and survival) and Ocean Animals: Who’s Who in the Deep Blue (another gorgeous National Geographic Kids book).

Another super popular book this year is one called… Drones. It’s one of those short, wide books with 96 pages chock full of information. There’s a four page intro and then each spread is about a different drone – military drones and then civilian drones. I liked that the pictures are large and the text is large and well spaced so it’s really readable. Also – for each drone they include a “How Big Is It”  box with the silhouette of that drone with either a person or a bus or something to help you picture it.


Two other books that have become very popular this year in the wake of student activist movements are Marching for Freedom by Elizabeth Partridge which tells the story of the Selma to Montgomery March in 1965 with a particular focus on the voices of the children who participated. Another book called Kids on Strike! tells the stories of children who organized in the early 1900s for better working conditions. Each chapter is about a different strike – from mill workers and coal miners and garment workers, It was a fascinating and timely read. I think it would be really interesting to have students compare a chapter from each these books to current news stories about student walkouts and the marches demanding gun control.

My students are also really loving those Scholastic “A True Book” series – especially the one called Cybercriminals which is all about hacking and identity theft – topics they hear about in the news and want to know more about. I really, really love this series and they have a plethora of titles that can connect to just about any content area so you can make your reading time also hit some science and social studies.

And – I probably don’t need to tell you this, but any of the Almanac / World Record-type books are hugely popular with my kiddos. They were with me too when I was their age! But boy have they changed! My tattered copy of the 19somethingsomething Guinness Book of World Records is black and white, teensy-tiny print, and maybe a picture or two? These books are chock full of color and images with bold words and color coded sections.  I don’t get a new one EVERY year but honestly I probably should they are so popular. Guinness has a great one every year and so does Scholastic.  And the National Geographic Kids Almanacs are also great. And there are also books like The Year in Sports and even ones specific to baseball or football.

And I’m starting to realize that this list is pretty heavily loaded with Scholastic titles. Honestly, it’s because they are affordable and I can save up my points to get some of the more pricey ones. But I do realize that limits the selection, so next year I’m going to look for ways to fund some other titles, too.

Alright – I hope this has encouraged you to pick up some new nonfiction titles for your children and students. And if you have a suggestion about a great nonfiction book we should all know about, email me at booksbetween@gmail.com or connect on Twitter at @Books_Between.


Wendy McLeod Macknight – Interview Outline


Our special guest this week is Wendy McLeod MacKnight.  We chat about art, her biggest
influences as a child, and her inspirations behind her newest middle grade novel,
The Frame-Up.

Take a listen…


Your newest novel is due to be released into the world on June 5th! What is Frame-up all about?

What kind of research did you do for this book and did you collaborate at all with the Beaverbrook Art Gallery?

What were some of the challenges you encountered when setting up the “rules” of the paintings?

If you could go visit any painting you wished, which one would you pick?

If you knew a painting could really come alive, would you want one painted of yourself?

**BONUS SPOILER SECTION: Wendy and I discuss the ending of the novel, and if you’d like to hear that conversation, I moved that part of the recording to after the end credits of today’s episode at the 47:30 mark.

Your Writing Life

What are you working on next?

Your Reading Life

One of the goals of this podcast is to help educators and librarians inspire kids to read more and connect them with amazing books. Did you have a teacher or librarian in your life who helped you

What are some books you’ve been reading lately?


Wendy’s website – http://wendymcleodmacknight.com

Wendy on Twitter and Facebook

Books & Authors We Chatted About:

It’s a Mystery Pigface (Wendy MacKnight)

A Wrinkle in Time (Madeleine L’Engle)

Penderwicks at Last (Jeanna Birdsall)

You Go First (Erin Entrada Kelly)

The Mad Wolf’s Daughter (Diane Magras)

The Science of Unbreakable Things (Tae Keller)

The Not So Boring Letters of Private Nobody (Matthew Landis)


Alright, that wraps up our show this week!

If you have a question about how to connect kids between 8-12 to books they’ll love or a suggestion about a topic we should cover, I would love to hear from you. You can email me at booksbetween@gmail.com or message me on Twitter/Instagram at the handle @Books_Between.

Books Between is a proud member of the Education Podcast Network. This network EPN_badgefeatures podcasts for educators, created by educators. For more great content visit edupodcastnetwork.com

Thank you so much for joining me this week. You can get an outline of interviews and a full transcript of all the other parts of our show at MGBookVillage.org. And, if you are liking the show, please leave us some love on iTunes or Stitcher so others can discover us as well.

Thanks and see you soon!  Bye!


Corrina Allen is a 5th grade teacher in Central New York and mom of two energetic tween girls. She is passionate about helping kids discover who they are as readers.

Corrina is the host of Books Between – a podcast to help teachers, parents, and librarians connect children between 8 and 12 to books they’ll love.

Find her on Twitter at @corrinaaallen or Instagram at @Corrina_Allen.



Learning to Look Beyond What You Think You See: How Middle Grade Fiction Can Entice Children to Explore the World Around Them

I’m thrilled to be visiting MG Book Village on the birthday of my latest novel, The Frame-Up, which is my love letter to art and art galleries/museums!

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As children, we are born with the love of creation. Sadly, for many of us, this unfettered joy gives way to abandonment when we realize that some of us have natural talent and some of us do not. Often, this feeling is only exaggerated by visits to where real art hangs. We wander gallery after gallery, seeing, but not seeing.

I’ve always loved art, though I didn’t always have a vocabulary to express why or how I was drawn to certain pieces of art. And if I am being truthful, at a certain point in my life, I sometimes felt intimidated when I visited art galleries, especially smaller ones, afraid I wouldn’t say or think the “right” thing. Because when I looked at the paintings or sculptures, I was imagining all kinds of things, none of which involved who the artist was or whether the medium was oil or watercolor or mixed media. I was imagining stories.

How to bring the love of art alive? I pondered this very question in the fall of 2015, sitting in my living room. I’m fortunate: I have artist friends, my great-grandmother was an amateur painter, and I have collected some nice pieces over the years. And I was always drawn to stories and movies that feature art: The Portrait of Dorian Gray, creepy movies where the eyes in the portrait follow the hapless victim from room to room, and of course, Harry Potter, where the paintings have lives of their own behind the frame. As I stared at an old oil painting of a cow on my wall, I wondered if it ever wandered over into the other paintings in my house. Were there brouhahas when I left the room or went to bed at night?

And then it hit me: what if all original art is alive, infused with the creative energy of their creators, and they don’t want us to know?

Much as I love the artwork in my home, I knew it wasn’t the proper setting for my book. But there was a place only a few miles away filled with world-class art who were just dying to share their stories: The Beaverbrook Art Gallery in Fredericton, New Brunswick, Canada. From there it was simply a matter of “casting” my characters from paintings and developing a compelling story of two worlds — one behind the frame, one in front of it — that exist side-by-side but can never intersect, at least not physically.

In the story, the gallery director’s son, an appropriately named Sargent Singer, discovers the secret of the Beaverbrook Art Gallery when he catches the book’s heroine, Mona Dunn, sticking out her tongue at a couple of obnoxious visitors. Add in some kids attending summer camp, a creepy art restorer, and a fractured father-son relationship, and I had my story.

But central to that story was encouraging children to look at art differently. In the book, the campers don’t just look at the art on the walls; they create copies using different mediums: crayons, graphic novels, collage. And readers get to step into the world behind the frame, encouraged to imagine what it was like the day the portrait or landscape was created, what’s been happening since, and the results of the artist’s choices (one can’t help but be sympathetic to the sketch of W. Somerset Maugham’s head in the story, forever dependent on the kindness of the gallery’s other residents to get him out and about.)

I also loved the idea of setting the book in a real place. Starting in June, people visiting The Beaverbrook Art Gallery can actually take The Frame-Up tour and see the characters in the book for themselves! And those who can’t go in person can visit the gallery virtually if they want to learn more about the paintings (after they’ve looked at the full color insert Greenwillow Books included in the novel!). If they visit the Beaverbrook, they’ll discover that the Mona Dunn portrait is every bit as mysterious and glorious as the Mona Lisa, which is why we’ve come up with #TheOtherMona.

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Mona Dunn, William Orpen, 1915, Oil on Canvas

One of my favourite things is when middle grade novels are set in real places that I can visit afterwards: The Anne of Green Gables House on Prince Edward Island, The Metropolitan Museum of Art after Percy Jackson, Betsy and Tacy’s houses in Mankato, Minnesota, Harriet the Spy’s house on the Upper East side of New York City, or all the locations in Michael Scott’s Alchemist books, for example. And if the reader can’t visit them in person, they can research them online.

But readers of The Frame-Up don’t have to travel to New Brunswick to experience art. My hope is that when they finish the book, they’ll ask their parents and teachers to take them to their local art galleries or museums. And when they do, I hope they stop and stare and wonder, just like I do. And realize that when you start to think of paintings as living things, they’ll come alive for you.

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Wendy McLeod MacKnight grew up in a small town and wrote her first novel at age nine. Her first middle grade novel, It’s a Mystery, Pig Face! was published by Sky Pony Press in 2017. She’s been known to wander through art galleries and converse with the paintings — mostly in her head, though sometimes not. She lives in New Brunswick, Canada with her husband, and feeds raccoons, even though she knows she shouldn’t!

Writing as a Second Career: Seven Middle-Life Authors Share Their Experiences

One of the interesting things about middle grade fiction is how many authors begin writing for children after working in other careers for many years.  So many, in fact, that those of us who’ve made the leap to writing for children suspect there are many more aspiring authors out there who are second-guessing whether or not to take the leap themselves. Seven authors — Kristin L. Gray, Wendy McLeod MacKnight, Sally J. Pla, Jonathan Rosen, Melissa Roske, Corabel Shofner, and Rob Vlock — have pulled back the curtain to share their own experiences, and perhaps encourage others that it’s never too late to chase their dream.

. . .

Kristin L. Gray — Author of Vilonia Beebe Takes Charge, Simon & Schuster/Paula Wiseman Books, 2017

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What was your previous career? 

Pediatric RN, Stay-at-Home Mom of five

Why did you change? 

My youngest began school, and I’d let my RN license lapse. I decided to give myself that year to buckle down and get serious about my dream. Up to that point, I’d treated writing like a hobby.

What in your previous career prepared you for kidlit? 

Being around kids! Observing their speech, their body language, their negotiation skills, their zest for life.

Commonalities in previous career/this new career? 

Same age audience.


Fewer kids crying!

Is it ever too late?

Never. Anna Sewell didn’t start writing Black Beauty until age 51, and Laura Ingalls Wilder was 64 when the first Little House book published.

What do you envision for the next few decades of your new career? 

Writing more books, improving my craft, making more friends.

What advice do you have for older aspiring authors? 

Read what’s current. Join a writing community, in person or online. Enjoy the journey. It’s a privilege to do what we do.

Wendy McLeod MacKnight — Author, It’s a Mystery, Pig Face, Sky Pony Press, 2017 and The Frame-Up, Greenwillow Books, June 5th, 2018

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What was your previous career(s)? 

I taught part-time at the University of New Brunswick and I was a civil servant for the province, rising to the level of Deputy Minister of Education.

Why did you change? 

I’d dreamed of writing for children my whole life. One day I woke up and decided it was now or never and left.

What in your previous career prepared you for kidlit? 

Tenacity, not taking others’ criticism of my work personally, work ethic.

Commonalities in previous career/this new career?

Deadlines, managing expectations, having to work long hours under very tight deadlines.


In my previous career, everything was about implementing political policy directions. This career is solely for me.

Is it ever too late?

So long as you can access your inner child, and unleash your imagination, you are good to go!

What do you envision for the next few decades of your new career? 

Writing, learning, and hopefully inspiring kids just like I was inspired by the books I read.

What advice do you have for older aspiring authors? 

The kidlit world has changed and you need to understand it. Strive for excellence, make connections, and find peers and teachers who can give you useful feedback. And keep trying!

Sally J. Pla — Author, The Someday Birds,Harper Books, 2017 and Stanley Will Probably Be Fine, Harper Books, February 6th, 2018

Screen Shot 2018-02-03 at 7.15.12 AM What was your previous career(s)? 

Business journalist. Front desk clerk. Freelance writer on business/family/education issues. School board president. Bad waitress. Terrible back-up singer in a local band. Mother. Special needs advocate.

Why did you change? 

Life comes in phases. I loved everything I did while I was doing it. (Except for waitressing. Those trays were HEAVY, and they made such a mess when you dropped them in the middle of the restaurant!)

What in your previous career prepared you for kidlit? 

I’ve always been a writer at heart and have always viewed everything in life as writing-fodder (for better or worse). The more life you live, well, the more fodder you have… Also, raising three little boys close in age, and surviving to tell the tale (they are all young adults now) gave me lots of stories. LOTS OF STORIES.

Commonalities in previous career/this new career?

I almost always wrote for a living — for journals, magazines, and businesses. Can’t not write.


This is the first time I really love what I get to write. I have always, always wanted to write fiction, but it took me decades to finally give myself the permission to try. (Hey, I have self-esteem issues! I didn’t think I’d be good enough. I mean, what audacity, to assume you can write a novel!)

Is it ever too late? 


What do you envision for the next few decades of your new career?

Many books of all sorts. Hopefully, I’ve got time! I mean, Ursula LeGuin was writing until she just passed away at 88. Grandma Moses started painting at 78. Newbery Medalist Karen Cushman started writing at 49. Inspiring, right?

What advice do you have for older aspiring authors?

Don’t make it be about getting published. Make it be about the art. The journey, not the destination. Do it for the work’s sake — for the love of perfecting an amazing, rich, full-of-life story. Eventually, you’ll know when it’s time for the next level.

Jonathan Rosen — Author, Night of the Living Cuddle Bunnies, Sky Pony Press, 2017

 Screen Shot 2018-02-03 at 7.15.23 AMWhat was your previous career? 

Which one? I did a few different jobs, but I did daytrading for many years, until the market really started tanking, and I transitioned into the lucrative field of education. From there, it was a more natural switch to writing, which I had always wanted to do, but never devoted the time to it.

Why did you change? 

I had always wanted to write, and being an English teacher meant that I was already immersed in literature. The bug came back, and I really sat down to do it.

What in your previous career prepared you for kidlit?

As a teacher, I was already doing literature. Reading, studying it, analyzing it. I got to discuss some of my favorite books, but kept thinking I want kids to discuss my work one day.

Commonalities in previous career/this new career? 

Well, besides being immersed in books, I do think you have to study your craft. By that, I mean reading a lot. Also, reading and learning about writing. I love to read new middle grade books and think about story structure. What would I have done the same or differently? Would I have made the same choices as this author?


It’ll sound funny to say in a world where deadlines are ever-present, but I like the solitude. I don’t have to answer to people about my work. It’s freeing, that I’m in total control of what I do. Though, I guess, agents and editors might beg to differ.

Is it ever too late? 

No. Definitely not. We all have to follow our own paths to whatever gets us here. And just because your first book might not be published until later in life, doesn’t make it any less of a great story than someone who publishes right out of school, or along those lines. It’s your journey, and everyone’s is different.

What do you envision for the next few decades of your new career?

I want to write, write, and write. I want to have as many books out as I can and leave behind a body of work for kids to enjoy. I have a lot of stories I want to tell.

What advice do you have for older aspiring authors?

Keep at it and NEVER give up. Rejections are tough to deal with, but we’ve all had them. It’s discouraging, but don’t ever let anyone tell you that you’re not good enough, or that you’re not going to make it. Learn your craft, study, and write. It can happen.  

Melissa Roske — Author, Kat Greene Comes Clean, Charlesbridge Books, 2017

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What was your previous career? 

Magazine editor/freelance writer; advice columnist; life coach.

Why did you change?

I didn’t change, exactly. I’ve always written for work; I just lacked the discipline to write anything longer than a magazine article, or answers to readers’ letters in my advice column. But then, when I became a life coach, I realized that my lifelong dream was too important to ignore. So I stopped ignoring it, and wrote a novel.

What in your previous career prepared you for kidlit?

As a magazine editor/writer, I learned to listen to the rhythm of words. As an advice columnist: Not every problem has a solution—but that shouldn’t stop you from trying to find it. As a life coach: Your inner voice always has something important to say. Listen to it.

Commonalities in previous career/this new career? 

Using the written word to express my thoughts, feelings, and ideas; adhering to deadlines; paper cuts.


Working in pajamas (I don’t do it, but I could); no waiting in line for the Xerox machine (there is no Xerox machine); talking to myself without getting the side-eye from co-workers (there are no co-workers).

Is it ever too late?

If Grandma Moses started painting at 78, well… why the heck not?

What do you envision for the next few decades of your new career?

Writing more books; worrying less about what people think of my books. You can’t please everyone, but you can be true to yourself—and to your readers.

 What advice do you have for older aspiring authors?

I know it sounds trite, but DON’T GIVE UP! I actually did give up at one point, but the urge to write overpowered the desire to quit. Being stubborn helps, too. 

Corabel Shofner — Author, Almost Paradise, Farrar, Straus and Giroux, 2017

Screen Shot 2018-02-03 at 7.15.45 AM  What was your previous career? 

What is this thing you call a career? I’ve been a traveler, a lawyer, an actress, a wife and mother.

Why did you change careers? 

I got old.

What in your previous career prepared you for kidlit?

Law: research & communication; Actress: imagination & tenacity; Traveling: bravery & energy; Family: faith & love

Commonalities in previous career/this new career? 

You must study to become excellent at anything. Writing is no exception. Keep learning. Network. Have fun.


Have to break in, so to speak. And that is weird particularly for an older person. Fortunately, I learned to handle rejection as an actress. It’s no big deal. You only need one agent and one editor to love your work to get published.

Is it ever too late?

Absolutely NOT. My debut novel came out when I was 64 and I think it is a perfect age.

What do you envision for the next few decades of your new career?

Writing many books for children. Promoting librarians and teachers.

What advice do you have for older aspiring authors?

Treat it like a job. Learn the craft, work hard, learn the business and get out there. Oh and get a layer of teflon for rejections.  I can’t tell you how many friends stop because of rejections. An independent editor told me to submit to 100 agents before giving up on a manuscript.  With so many submissions you can’t take it personally.

Rob Vlock — Author, Sven Carter and the Trashmouth Effect, Simon and Schuster/Aladdin, 2017 and Sven Carter and the Android Army, Simon and Schuster/Aladdin, Fall 2018

 Screen Shot 2018-02-03 at 7.15.53 AMWhat was your previous career? 

I started out teaching college writing at a couple of schools in the Boston area, but I was a pretty lousy teacher. So I became an advertising copywriter. SPOILER: It’s not as glamorous and exciting as MAD MEN would make lead you to believe. (Although I do have some stories….)

Why did you change?

I got tired of writing ads for life insurance companies, banks, software companies, health insurers and pharmacy chains. So I started working on my first book — an adult commercial novel about a copywriter who writes ads about flushable scented butt wipes.

What in your previous career prepared you for kidlit?

Being a copywriter was actually great preparation. You learn to be creative on demand, grow a thick skin, and cope with tons of distractions and competing demands and scathing criticism, and way too tight deadlines. It’s an awful lot like being a kidlit author, come to think of it.

Commonalities in previous career/this new career? Differences?

They’re similar in that they’re actually both really fun careers that can be incredibly rewarding — and incredibly bruising. The biggest differences: 1) Ads are typically much shorter than novels. 2) Being an author is a far more solitary endeavor.

Is it ever too late?

Of course not! My father, who just turned 90, has started his memoir. And I have every expectation that he’ll get it published! And I, decades out of college, am only now feeling like I’m hitting my creative stride.

What do you envision for the next few decades of your career?

Other than fretting and stressing over deadlines and sales? I envision continuing to write books that delight the 12-year-old inside me and give kids a reason to put down their iPhone and pick up a book!

What piece of advice do you have for older aspiring authors?

Don’t let anyone tell you you’re too old. Just keep working and keep looking forward. Oh, and be sure to eat plenty of fiber.